Pearland's Development Journey: From Bass Pro to Town Center

On the Talk of the Town Podcast, Cameron and Kevin discuss Pearland’s major development stories along the 288 corridor, focusing on how Town Center and Bass Pro Shops came to be. They recount a 2005 open-air mall proposal near Beltway 8/288, how Pearland won Bass Pro how competing plans with CBL led to Town Center securing major anchors like Macy’s and Dillard’s. They describe how Pearland avoided large incentives by letting the market play out, contributing to Bass Pro sitting largely alone and underperforming. The episode also explains how the Greater 288 Partnership helped advance 288 improvements by shifting toll project primacy to TxDOT through key relationships, and briefly notes past concepts like a presidential-heads attraction and a potential amphitheater near Bass Pro.

Transcript

Welcome And What We Cover

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Welcome to Talk of the Town Podcast. I'm Karen and this is Kevin. For those of you who may not have seen us yet, please go ahead and kind of like and subscribe to us. We have two episodes out now. And last time we kind of spoke about the quick development of Pairland, kind of went through their history. You know, we were we were founded in 1894, incorporated in 1959, and exploded in growth. We kind of went in a little detail last time. So if you're interested in that, please go ahead and check that out. And you might have heard we kind of talked about NASCAR and the NFL. Right. And uh today we're gonna talk about more development development stories here in Parland. It's just uh talk about the history of it. Why did we put the town center here? How did how and why did 288 expand through town and things like that? So we're gonna talk about a little bit of those developments today. Um, I guess starting off with the town center, just kind of give us the bidding war, kind of so to speak, or how we got to there, and then how did uh Pro get to where they're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, it's kind of kind of an interesting uh turn of events and and those types of things.

The Open Air Mall Pitch

SPEAKER_00 1:15

And I'm gonna go back to oh probably late 2005 time frame. Uh some sometime in 2005. We were approached by a group of developers called Pogan McEwen with a concept of an uh open air mall, living, you know, it's just a whole different concept than the enclosed mall.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Like in Baybrook and others.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Like you see at Baybrook or, you know, the the galleria and those types of things where they're enclosed and people walk around. Steven open air mall. And so Pogan McEwen um uh had had looked at the beltway in 288 and where Bass Pro is today. So we actually went through the process of uh working with them, getting a zoning uh uh application together. We used to do things like this called a PUD or a PUD planned unit development. Now it's just called plan development or a PD. So we went through this process with them. They were looking at bringing in Bass Pro. Uh I can the story how we landed the Bass Pro real quick while we're talking about it.

How Bass Pro Chose Pearland

SPEAKER_00 2:22

So the actual owner of Bass Pro, so they're in they, our economic economic development uh corporation folks are actually in Las Vegas. PDC. At PDC, at l at one of the large uh uh retail uh conventions, ICSC is what it's called. And they were there, the folks from Bass Pro were there, we were presenting to Bass Pro, and Bass Pro was going to make their decision on whether they were gonna go there where they are where they are now, or on 45 over in the League City area where Cabela's is now. So those two. And so one of the guys that worked for the PEDC in this conversation, the the the decision took all of about 15 minutes. The guy at Bass Pro, um, when he says he's gonna do something, his lieutenants concur. And so they're having this conversation, and uh EDC guy pulls out of his briefcase and he says, if you're looking for hunting and fishing licenses within a certain geographical region, 20 mile, you know, region uh around this site versus 20 miles over that site, there's one million more license holders from our site versus their site. Closed his briefcase and the owner goes, I'm going to Parliament. Sounds like a deal. So story of of how we landed Bass Pro where it's where it's located. But in addition to that, so Pogan McEwan had gone down and they were going to do things a little bit differently. They could get Bass Pro in. They really didn't have the traditional big box, like the Macy's and the Dillards, and all of those kind of things as a part of their deal. So they were going to bring their design plan and their whole uh development plan was to bring Bass Pro a place that dad could come to while mom kids and everything else did the rest of the town center, right? And the and the rest of the of the development. And so we had struck a deal with them. We had a we had a development agreement in in place and all this kind of stuff, and no incentive other than what we had for Bass Pro. And so when I say incentives, it's usually a rebate of sales tax for regional type things, roadways, water sewer, those types of things, bringing it in there. And uh so we we get the deal done, and within six months, they haven't broken ground, they haven't moved forward yet. Within six months, CBL, Charles B. Liebowitz, and their REIT, multi-billion

Two Competing Town Center Sites

SPEAKER_00 5:08

dollar REIT, is moving in and wanting to talk to us about where now town center is. So we have competing interest, they're going to cannibalize each other. And so it became a growing, it was a concern because we if if both of them happened at the same time, both could struggle. Right. And so you didn't need that. At the same time, we need to let the market play out, right? The market's going to speak. So it was real interesting amongst people on council, amongst people with our planning and zoning commission, and even our EDC board, there were competing interests because we didn't want to. So we had people who they just wanted to hook their wagon to one and others. And I kept telling people if we sit back and let the market play out, we're going to end up with a million square feet of retail with no incentive to do so. No incentive. So we did. We did exactly that. We let them play out. And what was interesting, in the midst of all of this, as a council member, you you heard through the grapevine, through the consultants, like engineers, architects, and the like from both projects, you were hearing what was going on inside. And and so what you were hearing was the big box retailers that the Pogan McEwan guys could not get. CBL was getting. So the next thing you know, in fact, Mr. Dillard himself made a visit to Pareland. We didn't know that. But the CBL folks brought Mr. Dillard himself into Houston, drove the drove the site, and said, I want to go there, not there. Okay. Which there meaning the current town center versus the corner of Beltway and 288. Yeah. So 518 and Broadway and the Belt and excuse me, 288. Broadway and 288. And so uh so the next thing you know, we've got everybody coming in, and here's where we are going. And and so uh next thing you know, these two are competing. They're trying to figure out how, what, and where to go and do. And um so we're gonna now move forward, and it looks like where town center is is now gonna move forward. Because they've got Macy's, they've got all the inline retailers ready to go. They're not getting the big retailers over here, but Bass Pro is is coming out of the ground. Okay, it's it's it's coming up and and rising out of the ground. So

Incentives And The Deal Breakers

SPEAKER_00 7:54

uh here is some of the funny stuff that happens behind the scenes and what you hear about when you're in the middle of all this is um one, be very, very careful what you say to a media. Be very, very careful what you say to a council uh on a Monday night uh in exec session. Two examples. So Bass Pro is in. Now Pogan McEwen wants to redo their plan development and their phasing instead of just boom, it's all there. They want to do it in two phases. And so I remember telling council that it would be in our best interest to incentivize them to get to phase two. In other words, put most of the incentive on phase two, not on phase one. On phase one. Okay. And outside of Bass Pro, they needed to have more retail space than just Bass Pro in order to get the incentive on the on phase one. So they had to have, uh memory serves me, it's like 132,000 square feet of retail on the ground, which is more than Bass Pro and more, and they could get access, which was about one-third of the total incentive, get to the rest of what would needed to be on the ground to get to the other two-thirds. So, long story short, they come in, they're dead in the water. They're they're not getting anything coming forward. And so uh we had an exec session where uh a gentleman with the last name Pogue, it was the son of Pogan McEwen, uh was in. Their chief counsel wasn't able to make the trip. He sits in exec session and he said, I'm here to tell you uh we're not expecting anything from the city for Bass Pro.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Now, so what is what is he referring to?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Sales tax rebates and things like that to get them here. Typically, if you bring in a Bass Pro, which is a big regional draw, uh that's gonna cost you. It's gonna cost you as a city. As a city, I'm gonna tell you, about twenty million dollars to get them in. That's what that rebate's gonna usually look like. And we've paid nothing for that Bass Pro.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Probably the only city that didn't pay anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Probably the only city in the nation that didn't pay anything to get a Bass Pro. So, long story short, about two weeks after we had that conversation with Josh Pogue coming in to say we're not expecting anything, their chief counsel comes to town, and uh we're sitting back in the same exact place in exact session, and he goes, We're looking to see if possible we could get about five million dollars out of the city for the Bass Pro Shop. I look across the table and I'm like, What? Excuse me. I said, Josh Pogue sat in that same chair two weeks ago and said, We're not expecting anything. So, do you have anything else to discuss? If not, we're done. If not, we're done. And I am telling you, Cameron is as I'm lying as I'm if I'm dying. He turned feet red blood red, blood red, steam coming out of his ears, could not they didn't talk. And we said, sir, one of your principals just said we're not expecting anything, and so that's what we're gonna live with. And so that deal was dead. Um said they were they were they were done. So now let's switch to town center. To town center, yep. Okay. And uh we're rocking along, they're getting this thing done, and and they were looking to get some incentives, you know, from the city, and the city kept pushing back. I don't I don't think we need to. I don't think we need to. And so one of the Liebowitz sons, uh Mark Liebowitz, was quoted in the Houston Business Journal as saying, regardless of what Pearland says or does, we are coming to pull him. So, long story short, he shows up, wants to have a meeting, we're in exec session, and he's asking for an incentive for the town center, to which we open up the business journal and said, Did you say this? His direct yeah, he he looked and he just went. And and so kind of the same thing. If if you don't have anything else to discuss, we're done here, we're kind of done. So we ended up a million square feet of retail with really no incentive on it.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

And and the reason why Bass Pro is sitting out there by itself for so long. Now there's a possibility of something moving forward

Why Bass Pro Sat Alone

SPEAKER_01 12:38

now. Here we are 20 years later, right, and that that area has been kind of sitting there vacant for a while. There's also been some development that came to an absolute halt uh in that area, but we're finally starting to see pieces being put together around Bass Pro.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Yeah, so we actually we actually there's a developer um out of the Houston market area that that uh has it under contract and is moving forward with a development plan, kind of a mixed-use development of some really high-end residential for sale. You'll have some high-end residential for rent, you know, uh mid-rise apartment, you know, type things. Uh there's some conversations about a hotel conference center there, high-end restaurants, that type of stuff, uh, to complement what's going on with Bass Pro. Bass Pro is underperforming uh greatly uh as a store within their uh within their chain. It needs the surrounding area, it it needs more along with it. Uh it's getting about 18 to 20 million in sales a year, should be at 60. And so that will probably happen if we can get the rest of this uh done, the developments done, and and then off we go. Uh and it's one of the mass last major corners in our city to develop. So we want kind of a wow factor. We want someplace we hear all the time, we want people with more restaurants, more high-end restaurants. High end is what we can hear. And and these developers have the ties to that. What drives that is density. If you don't have the proper density, you don't get those types of things. And so here's where you got to listen to the marketplace, but you also have to and what people want, but you also have to listen to the development community and how it happens. There's a strategic way to do it. Yeah, there's a there's a uh give and take and a balance to that that makes sense. And at the end of the day, you know, could be a could be a great deal. You know, at one time, there were just south of Bass Pro, there was On that side of the freeway? On that side of the freeway, there was a development with with the presidential heads, you know, and that you see around around town. And so, you know, so that was you know, working its way through. And boy, that was it was gonna be a spectacular opportunity, spectacular, you know, draw of people coming in and learning the history about our presidents and those types of things. David Addicks was the sculptor of of all of those. He passed away about uh sometime in the last year or so. Uh tragic to see. I mean, he's gone and no longer with us, but those heads are still around town. And so uh that particular one, uh it just didn't happen because of market timing. Uh about the time they got their their zoning done with the city, uh, we had the market crash of 2008. And so they got caught up in that. And unfortunately, the developers of that thing lost that development to their bank and it was foreclosed on. And so they never were able to come out of the ground and and get it done. It was spectacular to see it happening. And uh so now you know you've got some other development that's there with the Ivy Lofts and those types of things that are moving forward. So over time, you're gonna see more, you're going to see more uh residential development there and and and hopefully one day maybe some office development.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Right. Yeah, for those of you that are watching, if there's a certain area of town that you kind of want us to maybe dive into, maybe talk about a little bit. Sure. Yeah, let us know in the comments. Maybe we'll come back and do more development stories and at a later date. But we're talking about Bass Pro, we're talking about Town Center, we're talking about basically everything along the 288 corridor. Right.

A New Mixed Use Plan

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Um well, correct me if I'm wrong, that wasn't a high priority for a long period of time with Text Dot in the state and others. So, of course, we couldn't bring any of this development in without the expressway to get there.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So kind of tell us and talk about how did uh how did we get to 88 to where it is now um in the in the city of Parryland, of course, it connects from Harris County through Brazouria County and farther south.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Yeah, it goes all the way to the port. And it goes all the way down uh to the Gulf of Mexico and and well, the Gulf of America, excuse me. Gulf of America. And um, and so how, what, and where. So we had kind of the main lanes and sitting out there, but how did we get the toll lanes? So, what I'm gonna talk about a little bit is nothing about the toll lanes or it you know, wanting to go and do and bring the tolls, but just bring the facilities so we could facilitate more traffic. So in the late 2000s, 8, 9, 10, right there in that ballpark, there was more and more talk about it. So 2000 uh excuse me, 288 was actually um exempted and was allowed to be a toll by a law that was passed in, I want to say six or two thousand seven, somewhere in that time frame, by the state legislature. So it was uh it was a Senate bill and and it was exempted. So as a result, it could it could develop as a as a toll project. Obviously, the city of Parland, uh that's tech stock right-of-way. It's not gonna be our deal. So in that law, when it

The Presidential Heads Project That Stalled

SPEAKER_00 17:48

was passed, um local jurisdictions, the counties and their toll entities could take leadership of that of that toll facility or that project. It's called primacy. And so Missouri County and Harris County both you know took primacy. Back during that period, Text Dot was really under scrutiny uh around the state uh for some things, and so every entity around the state uh took primacy over Text Dot. Missouri County, Harris County, no different. So as we're watching and looking at this, it was a high priority from Harris County. In fact, it was number two on their list behind 290. But then all of a sudden we looked up, and in 09 and early 2010, it was dropping like a rock in water. I mean, literally on their on their priority. Missouri County portion's not going to be built if it doesn't connect to something and go on into Houston. So you got to work these two together. So, long story short, I came off council in 2010. Uh, me and council member Woody Owens created an organization called the 288 Partnership, the Greater 288 Partnership. And we we came together and created that partnership as a regional advocacy group for one reason, one reason only, and that is to push to get more dollars into and infrastructure built to create 288, not only north into Houston, but then south into Missouri County. Missouri County Commissioner's Court, uh, county judges, uh, and the like, very, very in favor of this project. They needed to make sure that it happened. We were the squeaky wheel, uh, if you will, go out there and squeak as much as we could to make it happen. Uh, and quick story about how it moved forward and when it moved forward. Uh, the issue was primacy, primacy in Harris County. Uh, so we would we would visit with uh Ned Holmes. Uh so Ned Holmes is a uh uh has been around the political world for decades in in the city of Houston and Harris County. He sat on the TechStock Commission, the highway commission. He was one of the commissioners. So me and Woody visited with with Ned often, and he kept saying the the answer is in 1492. It's in 1492.

Why 288 Expansion Mattered

SPEAKER_00 20:14

That's the law that allowed primacy. The real issue was we needed to get primacy in Harris County over to Text Dot, not with Harris County, so they could spend the money and go forth and do that project. We knew what the issue was, and so we devised a plan. Uh it was our El Franco Lee plan. He was the commissioner in Harris County where this project went through. And he didn't see it as a benefit to his his precinct like we saw it in Brisoria County. So we needed to get him over to release it and get it into TechSands. So uh I remember exactly where we were sitting. So Woody and I were in Austin. Uh we were gonna have at the commission meeting the next day, and he and I were having dinner with Ned, uh Ned Holmes, and Ed Underwood from the city of Lubbock. He was over in Lubbock as a tech stock commissioner. And back in those days, we called it the Ned, Ed, and Ted Show because three of the five were Ned, Ed, and Ted. Okay. And so it was a funny laugh there, but we're sitting at the Roaring Fork in Austin, Texas, you know, three streets down from the Capitol. We're having dinner, we're talking this back up. And Ned goes, the answer's in 1492. And I said, Ned, we know it's in 1492. And so our El Franco Lee plan, we found out that Ned had a relationship that went with El Franco Lee back 40 years. Personal relationship. And I remember sitting across the table from Ned Holmes and saying, Ned, the issue is in primacy. We're an advocacy group. We don't have any money to go and do this. The counties and text out are gonna have to figure it out. So I am I'm asking you as a friend of transportation, as a friend of the 288 partnership and wanting to see this succeed, and a 40-year friend to El Franco Lee, I'm asking you, Text Dot, to go and ask Harris County for primacy. And by the time I got finished with that question and that request, he was grinning from ear to ear. He had been waiting from somebody local to simply ask the question. And literally within months, with just a handful of months, from that time he negotiated the primacy back from Harris County to Text Dot, and the rest of that project was history.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

I mean, it it it goes to show that relationships matter. Relationships are key to all of us. You and I talk

Primacy And The 288 Partnership

SPEAKER_01 22:52

about this all the time. It doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on. It matters that, well, if if if you're able to send someone out like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Well, and and keep in mind, Ned Holmes was a long-standing long-term Republican. Elfranco Lee was a long-standing long-term Democrat. And they had a 40-year history together that they could talk. Now it's interesting. I was at a Text Dot forum when he after he had just negotiated this back. And um I saw him and uh he came over to me and he goes, I think we've got a deal done. And I asked him, I said, What did it cost you? What did it cost to talk to El Franco? What did it cost you? And he goes, Oh, it hurt. It hurt big time. And so today, if you're driving this corridor, let me tell you what it cost him. So in Pearl Land, uh, at the time, Cullen was only widened up just past where McCart is, into the creek. So it was going to take Cullen all the way into Houston, had to be widened. Um 521 on the west end of our community over there is being widened right now, and you see some of the infrastructure that's over by Shadow Creek, it takes that. So that's still in process. When you go up into Houston and you see the big flyover into um uh the the Med Center coming off of the toll facility, that was a condition that Text Ot had to build that. And then right now there's a there's a road that diverts off of 610 and Cambridge, comes off of 610 and down into Cambridge, taking traffic into the Med Center. That was the fourth. Those were the four projects that Text Ot had to take on in order to get primacy back. So the Greater 288 partnership kind of turned into a little bit more. Turned into a very strong regional voice for uh for transportation, correct. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Well, and and like I said, you can't have that without having can't have anything else. Can't have the big box stores without having transportation to get there.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

So and and so, real quick, just as an educational point, so the the the uh the 288 toll facility, you know, ends around County Road 58 in Brizouria County. And so Brisouria County uh is in final design right now from taking it from County Road 58 all the way down south of Highway 6 to about County Road 56, uh, which is uh I think it's uh Meridiana Parkway. So somewhere in that, in that uh in that area, they'll be taking that up. So that should be under construction, moving south uh in about a year from now. Yeah, into 27, early 28, somewhere in that ballpark, you should see that under construction and taking that further. And then they'll have another leg from there all the way down to where the Grand Parkway will be coming through at County Road 60, which is about a mile, mile and a half north of uh FM5 uh 1462 down

The 1492 Strategy And Relationships

SPEAKER_00 26:02

there. And so you'll see all of that uh in the coming decade as that will move forward. But it goes back to having relationships, understand where the landmines are when you're trying to do all those kind of things, and how to negotiate and avoid the landmines. El Franco Lee was a landmine, and we had to avoid it, and instead we had to get it out of his hands and into Textot's hands. And once we figured that out, the request was easy.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

I was about to say, what the conditions makes the Med Center a little bit easier to get in and out of. Oh, absolutely. A little bit. I mean, traffic's traffic, right? And of course, Colin being widened all the way up into Houston, too. So, I mean, overall, it helps the region and what was done and taken care of.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

And helps our folks in Brisoria County and our commuters from Paralyn and northern Brisouria County up into Houston. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Um, real quick before we end in today, we've been talking about the 288 corridor. Uh, we talked about Bass Pro, everything behind Bass Pro. Wasn't there a possibility at one point we could have gotten a or received a concert venue?

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Um uh we were in competition for uh an outdoor amphitheater. Much like the Woodlands, I'm assuming. Very similar to the Woodlands, uh, but but with you know I mean the Woodlands is 30 years old or older now. And so, you know, but uh but a much upgrade from that. And they they they made the decision to go over into the flyway area in in Webster and the I-45 corridor as opposed to ours. That would have been cool, though.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Concert venue right here.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

But we could have had a concert venue next to the Bass Pro and everything else. I think it really would have uh made that site come alive and and had some pretty cool features, and it would have been in our backyard as opposed to having to go over there. But uh, you know, having said that, you know, we have some some great opportunities right there at the Beltway in 288.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

So in the last two episodes, we talked about the opportunity of having a concert venue, an NFL stadium, which would have brought the Rockets in, and a NASCAR track.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

It's kind of some incredible history of of being where we are. Well, Jim Rome always says Pareland is the center of the universe. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Uh he wasn't necessarily talking about any of that, and that when he discussed that, for anyone who knows what we're talking about with Jim Rome, just Google it. Just Google Jim Rome Parland, and you'll get this full story. Uh but no so let's talk about a little kind of what we're gonna talk about next week a little bit. We're uh gonna talk about high density development. Um, we're gonna get into the the weeds of apartments and townhomes and high density uh residential and the zoning that comes along with it. We'll even talk about the kind of the legislature and what they did last session and all that.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

So just a little quick you know, at the end of the day, um affordability is a big topic, not only in Parliament, Missouri County, in Texas, but across our nation. Uh home ownership is becoming out of reach for some young couples, and it's just difficult because of the cost to get there. So one of the things is just how do how do we bring affordability to the marketplace? At the same time, we have tracts of land that have its opportunity in the court of public opinion in front of a zoning case to have its opportunity to be heard and seen and counseled to weigh in on what we want. And so we need to be talking about uh that in light of that. What is property rights, private property rights versus the community rights? How does those how do that mesh and how do they compete and and and and fight? I mean, it's it's legitimate, it's real, it's it's emotional, right? Because we're dealing with people's money, we're dealing with people's livelihoods. In the case of an acreage and tracts of land, it may be dealing with a tract

What It Cost To Get Primacy

SPEAKER_00 30:04

of land that's been in a family's ownership for decades. And and and that's a livelihood. And so, how does all this compete and work? It it's not easy. We have to throw the market in there as well. And yeah, so it's not cut and dried.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

No, so it's not not easy to navigate. So we'll be talking about that next week. So tune in as we talk about you know the different apartments, townhomes, are they needed? Do we why are people so resistant to them? Kind of what you're talking about, property rights. And then we'll talk it, like I said, we'll get into the legislation. So uh tune back next week where we're gonna talk about more local leaders, local stories, and local impact. That's it. So that wraps it up for this time on the Talk of the Town podcast.